In the Field: The ABA Podcast

The People Side of ABA: Recruiting, Onboarding, and Retaining Talent with Holli Clauser

• Allyson Wharam

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Podcast Episode: The People Side of ABA: Recruiting, Onboarding, and Retaining Talent with Holli Clauser

In this episode of In the Field: The ABA Podcast, I sit down with Holli Beth Clauser, founder of ABA C.A.R.E.S. Staffing, the ABA C.A.R.E.S. Conference, and host of The People Contingency Podcast.

Holli brings a wealth of experience from her early days as a behavior technician to her current work helping ABA organizations rethink hiring, onboarding, and retention. We talk about how ABA principles can (and should) be applied to the people side of the field, why turnover is a clinical issue, and what ethical, retention-first hiring looks like in practice.

Key Topics:

  • The People Side of ABA: Holli shares her journey from direct care to founding ABA C.A.R.E.S. Staffing, and how her passion for improving client outcomes through better staff systems drives her work.
  • Ethical, Retention-First Hiring: Why honesty and clarity during recruitment lead to long-term stability—and how being upfront about the realities of the job helps both candidates and clients.
  • Data-Driven Decision Making: How organizations can use metrics beyond turnover rates to evaluate hiring, onboarding, and employee support.
  • Bridging Operations, HR, and Clinical Teams: Strategies for breaking down silos and building collaboration between recruiters, clinicians, and leadership.
  • Culture, Belonging, and Brand: How small decisions—from who gets celebrated to how feedback is handled—communicate organizational values and shape retention.
  • The ABA C.A.R.E.S. Summit: Holli’s annual conference focused on workforce sustainability, leadership development, and meaningful collaboration across roles in ABA.

Key Takeaways:

  • Recruiting is not just filling seats—it’s the first step in delivering quality care.
  • Retention starts before hiring. Being transparent about expectations builds trust and long-term alignment.
  • ABA organizations must apply the same analytical rigor to people systems that they apply to client programs.
  • Collaboration across HR, operations, and clinical leadership is essential for sustainable staffing systems.
  • Building culture is an ethical act: how you treat your people directly impacts how they treat clients.

Keywords: ABA Staffing, Retention, Recruitment, Onboarding, Organizational Culture, Workforce Sustainability, HR in ABA, Behavior Technician Hiring, Ethical Hiring, Employee Engagement, ABA Leadership, Holli Clauser, ABA C.A.R.E.S. Conference

Connect with Holli:

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The People Side of ABA: Recruiting, Onboarding, and Retaining Talent with Holli Clauser

Allyson Wharam: [00:00:00] Welcome to in the Field, the ABA Podcast. I'm your host, Allyson Wharam, creator of Sidekick, an online interactive curriculum and learning portal for behavior analysts. We specialize in providing a field work supervision curriculum and continuing education for ABA professionals. In this podcast, we're going to deep dive into the world of ABA, focusing on quality supervision as the foundation of our field.

We're here for behavior analysts, business leaders, and trainees who are passionate about maximizing outcomes for their clients and improving the quality of their services with new and innovative practices. We're going to explore effective strategies and practices that not only enhance the quality of supervision, but also save time all while investing in the people who make up our field, our clients, our trainees, and your everyday behavior analysts.

So whether you're driving to your next in-home session or taking a break from your busy schedule, let's dive right [00:01:00] in.

Allyson Wharam: Hello and welcome everyone. Today I am joined by Holli Beth Klauser the founder of ABA C.A.R.E.S Staffing, the ABA C.A.R.E.S. Conference and host of another podcast that I highly recommend called The People Contingency. She has a wealth knowledge and experience in ABA from her own experience as a technician herself, and how that grew and evolved into what she does now at a national scale, helping ABA organizations think differently and more intentionally about how they hire onboard and support their teams.

And getting to know you personally, Holli, I think what is most interesting to me or draws me most to your work is how value centered and people centered it is. And so I'd love to hear from you about your story and what first got you interested in the hiring and staffing side of ABA.

Holli Clauser: Yeah. Thanks for having me on, [00:02:00] Ally. First of all I've listened to your podcast and so I'm tHRilled and nervous to be here. So we'll call it nerve excited to be here. I think you have a great podcast, so hopefully I'll offer some value to your listeners. The question about how I got into this space I absolutely did not plan on being in staffing, or hiring, or the HR realm at all.

In fact, I didn't even know that ABA was a space for me. I think like probably many of us fell into it and I think that's my story with this stage of my career as well. It was very hard for me to not be one-on-one with the children and I still miss it. To this day I would say that I have a lot of talent in helping non-focal, very aggressive, high impact profoundly impacted individuals with autism.

And so I still have a passion for that. But the reason why I stay here and the reason why I stay here [00:03:00] is because I do believe that turnover has such a, an impact on the child's consistency of care. Obviously. I also think it impacts the individuals that are getting into the field. So once I started doing training, I started realizing, oh, there's a lot of people that are in my training right now that have no idea what they signed up for.

And I started noticing I was the only trainer that was reaching out to HR, reaching out to the recruiters, saying, Hey can we backtrack a little bit here and just see like, how did this person get here? What were they told? Is this really the. The field or the position for them. And having some of those conversations was the lead in to wanting to do recruiting because I wanted to try to get people a little bit earlier to educate them.

So I really look at a recruiter's job, part of their job. [00:04:00] Is to educate the consumer or the candidate on what the position is or what the company is and really be honest and truthful. And if we can start there before they even get to training, then we have a likelihood of there being a better match and there being more consistency.

And so it's natural for me. I had done some recruiting in the past. I was a director of childcare at Lifetime Athletics, and so I had built that out from the ground and done all the hiring there. I had been a office manager at one of the largest insurance brokers in Chicago, and so it wasn't foreign to me.

But what really got me and what got me really stoked, and I hope is contagious to others, is the being able to realize where we can infuse ABA into the art of recruiting. And so not only looking at motivation and things like that, but really looking at the data that drives better hires. And once I [00:05:00] realized that we could do that, and I saw the impact, I was hooked.

And that was it.

Allyson Wharam: You're totally right in that once we start to think about hiring more systematically, it can become really interesting because it seems like just one piece of the puzzle, but what I think is unique about your experience and how you're approaching things is you have that direct experience as a technician.

You have experience directly on the other side of that, helping folks orient to the role and figure out what this role entails. And then you also have experience with the recruiting side and finding the match for all of those things. And now you do a lot of operational work to make sure that all of those things align.

And one thing I heard you mention was the databased decision making side of things, which I think will resonate really closely with how a lot of us like to view the world and perhaps how organizations may not already be thinking about recruiting or they might be looking at some [00:06:00] very lagging metrics and not thinking about some of the things on the front end that they could track. But one thing that was really interesting to me, like you said, was how folks are oriented to the role before they're even hired. What is explained to them about what the role entails, what experience do you have? And so I'm curious, from your experience, what are the best ways that you've seen organizations approach that in terms of how to make sure that the person they're hiring fully understands what they're even signing up for?

Holli Clauser: Yeah, so I'll add in too... I think part of the other experience that I bring to the table is being autistic and also being a parent of neurodivergent adults now, but children who were impacted in various ways, medical behavioral and that I had to try to find the right fit for them as well.

So I bring that in and I bring that up because part of it, I'll say, to be honest with you, a little [00:07:00] bit of is guilt tripping. And I'll explain what I mean. And so I'm gonna reverse engineer this. So at the end when I'm talking to an individual and I think that potentially they'd be a great fit, I always ask them to take at least a day to process everything that I've said to them which I'll explain a little bit more what I've already shared with them at this point, but I ask them to at least sleep on it and then remind them that they probably are somebody, if you're getting into this business, how can you not be somebody who is a caretaker, somebody who wants to do good, wants to make a good impact?

And so I just let them know about the consistency and the importance of showing up for this position and ask them to evaluate their life and where they're at this point, if they can dedicate their time to this. And then I openly shared to them that at one point I wanted to get into ABA when I was a single mom of my two children who both had their own needs [00:08:00] and their own right.

And it wasn't the time for me because the clients needed me in the evenings. They needed that consistency. And at the time that I had first thought about doing it at an ABA center versus a school, I had to make the tough decision to say that's not what I can do right now. I would do a great job and this is probably the right company for me, but the time in my life is not right, right now.

And so I share with them that, to really consider that because what I would hate is for them to get into something and then feel like they couldn't succeed in it and maybe give up on it for a reason that is not the fact that they cannot do the skillset or that they wouldn't be great in this field.

And also the fact that of what it's going to potentially, the turnover could potentially do to the client and the negative impact on them and the families. So I do spend a bit of time on. And then when I meet with them again, I do ask them, have you considered it? Where are you [00:09:00] thinking? Do you need to brainstorm this with me?

And I work with them as a partner. But up until then I'm gonna back up a little bit, but that's where I leave people at before they make the decision. Where I start the educational process is really my approach of being an educator instead of being a salesperson. So there were so many times, Ally, I can't even tell you where I was working when we were in person and I had the cubicle next door and I could hear the person next door to me talking about the position as if it was rainbows and butterflies.

And I thought, oh my goodness, you have no idea. And these individuals are going to also not understand what they're getting themselves into. So I start by saying, this is not babysitting. I start by saying, there are gonna be so many things that you're gonna love about this job. Potentially you're gonna be able to hear the first word and you're gonna be a part of helping an individual get there.

And there's so many great things that I can tell you about this job, but I want you to know the [00:10:00] hard things about this job, just to make sure that it's going to be a good fit. And what those hard things are really depends on the clientele and also the company. It might be a newer company that doesn't have the full training, and that's gonna be part of the hard, or it could be that this company focuses on helping profoundly, impacted individuals that have a high rate of aggression.

And that might be the hard, so the hard can look many different ways, and then I don't take their answers or how they're feeling about it at face value. Oftentimes, if I ask somebody, if this job, let's say, has an individual who's has a high rate of biting and is age four. Is that something that could maybe feel like you could see yourself being helpful with?

They're going to say yes or they're going to say, I don't know. Yeah, I think so. I mean yeah, I could do that. Those type of answers are usually a no for me. I'll dig a little bit for further. Have you ever witnessed this? Have you seen this? Have you observed it? Because I wanna [00:11:00] know how are they determining their yes.

And then from there, I determine whether I feel like that is a yes that is founded in actual an understanding, or if that's a yes, where they're trying to answer the question correctly in order to get the job. So it's really a lot of listening. But it starts with first, having the conversation and talking about some of the parts of the job that are not so glamor.

Allyson Wharam: Yeah, that kind of reminds me of just general interviewing skill, when we're interviewing parents or something like that. Asking those just straightforward yes or no questions versus asking more open-ended questions where they have to really generate. A deeper response that lets you know either they understand what you're talking about or gives you more insight than just like a yes or a no.

But I'm curious because some folks might be worried, that this approach, I would imagine, would deter [00:12:00] applicants. And we have such a high demand for technicians for BCBAs. Hopefully by the time you get to the BCBA role, they know what the job entails. Each organization is different.

And so what do you say to the organizational leaders who might be afraid that this approach of being more upfront and realistic might deter certain applicants?

Holli Clauser: Yeah, I get that. I'll give you an example. It's not exactly about this, but I think that it will answer your question. I recently was working with a company. They were looking for a BCBA who is available in the evenings, so they're block tHRee, so in the evenings and then on weekends. So you can imagine that's a hard one to fill, especially because of the hours, right?

And so they consulted with me. I changed their job description to have the actual timeframe of when these individuals be working. And they did come to me and said, [00:13:00] Hey we're not seeing as many applicants as we would like. And I thought, great, you're right. We're not, and that's okay because it's doing its job.

I did end up filling this position for them, but they didn't have to interview so many people or, and I didn't have to screen so many people to hear, this isn't the right time for me, or I'm not able to fill this. Position and so it's not a fit and move on. I think the way that I talk about it is I would rather talk to this individual when the timing is right, than have them come a little bit frustrated that this wasn't in the job description.

Now, I'd rather build a relationship with them when the, when things align, if you will. And so I feel that way too with the conversations. I might have a conversation with an individual right now like myself, who maybe they are a single parent and they can't commit to those hours, and so the answer is no, but they're gonna come back and [00:14:00] they're gonna have a great experience with you if everybody's coming into the conversation with their eyes wide open.

Same with whether they start with you. So the argument could be made, maybe we don't do that. And you have individuals that start with you and it doesn't go right. Those individuals are not going to come back likely to the field, but most definitely not coming back to your company because they're not gonna feel like they were set up for success.

Now, they could have made that decision with an education of understanding what the role was before and maybe it still doesn't work out, but they might come back to you after they gain more experience, understanding that they made a decision to come in and over sought their skillset or potentially felt like they, they could do something and it didn't work out, but that's on them and they recognize that's the hope, right? So my argument is that they're leaving anyway. Our turnover is awful and so we can't keep doing the same and expect it to [00:15:00] work. And so while there is the risk that yes, you might have a lower candidate flow, I'd argue that if you have a higher stay rate and a higher success of quality can candidates being hired, then that's a trade off that I'm willing to make.

But not every company is gonna agree with me, but that is the type of hiring that I think is more successful.

Allyson Wharam: Yeah it's analogous to what I say about field work supervision in terms of you pay for everything at some point in terms of do you address these skills now in field work or do you have to learn 'em the harder way on the job later on? Because maybe you didn't take the time to do that during field work or didn't have the opportunities.

Unfortunately, it's a similar sort of situation it sounds like from your experience, where that lack of fit shows up somewhere inevitably at some point. And so it's a lot less risky I think for everyone involved to do it more proactively where everyone can evaluate fit on the front end rather than [00:16:00] having maybe this poor experience that maybe impacts clients or more profoundly impacts that person if they've set aside time for training or impacts the organization in terms of investment in that candidate.

And so I think this relates obviously very tightly to the general theme of kind of what we were gonna talk about today, which is just ethical retention first hiring. So if you were to zoom out a little bit to that process, what does ethical retention first hiring look like in practice?

Holli Clauser: Yeah, I think it starts with clarity and knowing your own self first, and so as an organization you're gonna need to know what am I able to offer the individual that's coming in so that we can lay it all out there. For example, you just triggered the thought of, that's the same advice I would give a student who is looking to see what organization they wanna [00:17:00] work for to get their practicum. That's something to consider. This might be a great organization for future you, but is it where you should be right now with the skill sets that you need? Are we evaluating the right things? And so I think with ethical retention slash quality first hiring, it starts with identifying.

What the truth is of you as an organization need, and then spending some quality time of deciding who it is that you want to hire. Spending time on your mission, on your vision, on your values, and not just posting them up on a wall or giving them out in swag on a coffee cup, but truly understanding that because when I build out an interview form with a company, I start with, what are your values?

Because I want to listen and evaluate for that in my questions. My questions are very much geared to what is important to you as a company. And so I think that many people skip that step thinking that it's not going to really lead to [00:18:00] quality or or anything but it does. And so that's the first step is just really understanding what you're looking for.

The other profound step that I think that makes the biggest impact is... having the recruiters that are trained to understand and are motivated by the numbers that are meaningful to your clients. And not selling, not racking up high numbers of cold outreach and all of those aren't great indicators of what's gonna actually help your clients remove your business.

It, really lead to any great result or outcome from going that way. And so making sure that when you are hiring people in that are recruiters, that they're not there because they love the numbers game that they love the filling the quota and getting that brownie point, that high that you get from the first hire that accepts. You want the individual that can see the long-term.

Goals of the [00:19:00] company and that can wait for that reinforcement of, yes, like I hired this individual, they're still there in tHRee months, six months, a year. That BT that I hired is now a BCBA. Like people who get excited about that and who are motivated by that versus really talking about the numbers that they hit is where I would start.

And I'd like to give an analogy if I can. If you think about going, we all know what this is like going to the grocery store and you're starving and you are so hungry for things that you start grabbing things off of the shelf and you're like, I'm gonna cook this. This is this is something that is essential for my home, yada.

And you end up tHRowing out most of that. Or maybe you didn't really plan on what you want to eat. And I use this analogy to say that the planning of who you're hiring is equally as important. So making sure that you know what skills are needed, what clients you're bringing [00:20:00] in to know who you need to hire for either a BT or a BCBA.

And so that planning part of recruitment is huge so that you can make sure that you're grabbing the right ingredients, if you will, to get the recipe and the results of something that you would like to enjoy. Otherwise, you're going to be ordering in pizza potentially, or you're going to be left in a situation where you're scrambling because nothing that you have in the house is edible or able to make something.

And the same with your company. You're gonna be left with people that you can't staff. Maybe the hours don't work. But you didn't think about that. You didn't think about the staffing and that matter. Or maybe you are, have been taking in clients that are more in the teenage age group and you don't have anybody who has that, or when I hired in Colorado, they had a higher rate for some reason of clients that had suicidal ideation.

It's a very different interview than [00:21:00] interviewing somebody for early intervention. We're gonna be asking different questions and so you can't really focus on quality and retention if you don't even know where you're looking for. So that would be my step one.

Allyson Wharam: Yeah, there's a lot to unpack there. I think it's all very interconnected, starting with fully understanding the differentiators for your organization from a values lens, from the service lens. What does that look like concretely in your organization?

And then the flip side of that retention first hiring is, what you've mentioned multiple times on LinkedIn and other platforms as you're talking, which is that reactive hiring or, the grocery store analogy I think is a great one where you are starving, you don't have a plan, and on top of that you're so hungry for anything that then you're even more motivated or likely to just pull the stuff that looks good, which might be great in the moment when you have all of the snacks or whatever in the short term. And then, like you [00:22:00] said, you go to make a meal a week later or a few days later and you don't have what you need. It might satiate you in the moment, but it doesn't set you up for success in that longer term.

And so I guess for folks that really want to be clear on their values and to translate that to the people that are hiring, I'm sure a piece of that too is making sure that the recruiters are very, like you said the values can't just be something that lives on a mug. So they have to internalize those values, understand those values, know how to ask the right questions and know what metrics are meaningful to you.

So with that I guess I have a two part question. The first is, what value do you see in that person who's hiring, being already immersed in your culture? So being a current RBT or being someone who is more internal to your organization. And then with that, organizationally, I imagine it's not enough for that person to just be internal to your organization.

You have to live [00:23:00] those values out in your organization for that to even make a difference. So I guess, how do you see those things coming together in your experience?

Holli Clauser: Yeah, that's a great question. Questions. The first part, even though I am a third party recruiter and I will help individuals with that, it's not where my passion lies, because I do believe that having an internal recruiter does lead to better results and better retention. And with that, you did pick up on, I do believe it is faster to get somebody who understands ABA and understands a job like an RBT or even a BCBA, who can be trained into recruitment and understanding how to recruit versus taking a recruiter that might come from tech or come from a space where they're disconnected to the impact that retention has on our clients or disconnected from even being able to talk about the job accurately.

I think [00:24:00] that it's important to get it all right. You also mentioned something else that's important, which is you have to be honest and I about. The person that's gonna work with your organization and also your organization. And so I do think that an internal individual has a likelihood of being able to see some of those holes and knowing this is, we're overselling here.

The BCBA don't actually overlap for the first tHRee weeks, if you look at the data. So maybe we either get them too, or we don't say we do. And so somebody who's gonna notice this is what we're selling, but this is actually the conversations I'm having with the people that are doing the job by checking in or having a relationship with the clinical team or the HR team, whoever's gonna share that data to say let's do a inventory and and check and see.

Is what we're saying, what we're doing. And so having somebody to intentionally do that. And so I do think that a good recruiter, no [00:25:00] matter who's in the seat, has to ask questions, has to verify, trust your company, but verify. And also, having somebody who is willing to be resilient to work through some of the some of, I guess I, I'll call them just like wrinkles in the paper or bumps in the road where not everything has to be perfect, but you want somebody who cares enough to advocate for when something doesn't seem right.

So I'll give you an example. So I was talking with a recruiter who was an RBT for a company. They became a recruiter. Yeah, and when I was talking with them, they mentioned the turnover in the company and also told me a little bit about how they were interviewing, which really told the entire story.

I'm happy to unpack that with you and what went wrong. But largely my concern when talking to this recruiter more so was when I asked her how she felt about the turnover, she was very much sold on what [00:26:00] the executives were saying, which was, we are making an impact. So if you can hire faster than we're losing people, we're able to meet the kids where they're at and fill these wait list and get, and fill these hours and get people their prescription that, that were that the, that's needed.

But, my concern more and where I pushed back on her was if you're hiring for a small center. And you're never filling those hours, even though you're sending people in, are those clients really getting quality and do you really feel good about the work that you're doing? I'm not trying to make somebody feel poor about their performance, but you can't just take at face value when a company is happy for you, because your hiring numbers are good.

Really push back to understand the retention and then if it's not great, ask, how can I do better? What can I look? Can we pull some numbers in so [00:27:00] that I can look at the decisions I made at hiring because these people aren't sticking and I take pride into my work and how I am, delivering people that are gonna go into people's homes because we do need to care whether it's a center or home.

We do need to care that even though these people are cycling through, and you may hire faster than you're losing people. That might be a possibility, but you really should care about what they're doing while they're there.

Allyson Wharam: I think what this is getting at though is that it's such a systems level problem, which is why every piece then leads to 10 other things that we could talk about how this variable impacts this variable and so on.

I think any of us that have been in the role of a technician understand and remember what it was like to be a brand new technician. So this is no slight to anyone who is out there working really hard and is in that role, but realistically, your skills as a brand new person or someone [00:28:00] who maybe even has experience but then is also having to learn the ropes of this new organization, this new family, this new client.

Because all clients are different. We all know even if you have tons of experience, when you have a new client, it takes time to learn that client, to build rapport. And yeah, I don't think we have to unpack a ton of what that means to quality. I think any of us that have been in that role understand the impact of rotating through technicians.

And then what that also means for. Families CHRis Topham was recently on the podcast. They have a BCBA lead model and he said part, a lot of what families are looking for is not necessarily that it's a BCBA versus an RBT, but they're looking for stability. So it's not necessarily that they aren't satisfied with the general RBT skill level.

That's not necessarily the problem they're trying to solve. It's that revolving door of folks in their home and then. Not only I think we can unpack what that means for quality, but within that relationship. But we also have to think about how that [00:29:00] ripples out for that family, and then on a broader scale, what that means for that organization and their reputation for the families they're serving, and then for the folks that they've hired.

And then broader than that, we have to think about societally what that does to people's understanding of ABA and the quality of the services that we provide as a whole. Has that come up in any of your conversations or when you have an organization come to you, are they thinking about that lens?

Holli Clauser: Oftentimes no. And I think that goes back to your point earlier, right? Which is we might scare away people or it might take more time. And how do people respond to that? And it's not great, but to your point, if they zoom out, you will see the fact that it does impact your employer brand, your brand to your families.

Trust me, there's groups, those fa those families are talking. And so when you have a higher revolving door or a fast revolving door, [00:30:00] they are going to share that experience and many of them will even leave ABA altogether. And I know while that might seem. To some individuals that might seem like we don't have a problem finding clients, right?

And so if we have a revolving door of clients because of our revolving door of staff, that's fine. We can always fill it. But that should never be your motto. And if that is, I can guarantee that's not going to work out for many reasons. If you have that sort of mentality, it shows and you wanna be the place.

And I've been proud to work at places that are, the place that people are lining up, waiting for there to be a role open. And whether it's a spot and a waiting on the waiting list for your client, or it's the role open for the candidate, you want to be that company. And that's gonna what, what's gonna help you stand out, especially when there's places popping up.

Kind of like Starbucks in every corner. There's a high concentration [00:31:00] of different companies that people can go to seek ABA and then also to work, you need to stand out. And so in order to do that, the way that you can do that is by being having integrity and doing things with intentional mindfully, and thinking about long term versus a short term success because ultimately that's just not, it's not gonna be sustainable.

This isn't the kind of industry where people don't talk every, everybody's talking.

Allyson Wharam: It has that impact on your brand, which then ties into the culture and the values and it's making me think about what you're signaling also overtly or more covertly to the people that you're hiring. If you're frame is already, that these people are warm bodies or disposable, or could be cycled through, what does that mean for those people?

How did they perceive their own value? Are they going to be motivated to show up and do their best, or are they just [00:32:00] perceiving their own role as well? I'm just someone here to fill these hours and it doesn't matter a whole mu much what I'm doing during this time. It, I remember being a technician and, doing in-home. And it was interesting to me, once I moved into the role of trainer, I was in that middleman's land of not a BCBA yet, but not a technician. And this organization, they would, they definitely tr treated their technicians as pretty disposable. And it became really evident to me when I saw what they did for birthdays.

It was very interesting. They so they only had they would go and get like birthday cake, but they would only do it for BCBA's birthdays and they would only get birthday cakes for the BCBAs and not as technicians, we didn't even know that they were doing that and that they would have like their own kind of separate thing.

It wasn't until I was in this kind of middleman's land, but it wasn't just oh, we're getting a birthday cake for just the BCBA's, we're trying to save money. They would get these like very fancy [00:33:00] custom bakery cakes. And so I guess my point here is it was such a tangible, just like example of who they valued.

Instead, they could have just gotten like a Sam's Club cake once a month for everyone to celebrate their birthdays, but it was such a clear divide of here's who we value and what we value. And everyone else, you're just here. We don't really, we're not even really thinking about you. Not only are we not celebrating your birthdays, but you're not invited.

And so I just remember having that almost like a visceral reaction once I saw that. Especially because I was in a similar role to you where I was an onboarding sort of person, and I could see how folks were feeling during that hiring process where they didn't feel supported, where the BCBAs weren't coming out for the first tHRee weeks, like you gave that, those were all tangible things.

And so these little examples might feel isolated, or it might feel like a one-off, or does that really matter? Is it that important? They didn't even know, the technicians didn't even know that this was happening. But [00:34:00] those things, those individual behaviors and choices that you make as an organization are reflected somewhere.

And that overall culture in your brand and how you are treating your folks does show up for the people that you're hiring and for your clients as a result.

Holli Clauser: Yeah, I agree. And it's a dangerous road to go down, whether it's just talking about not just birthday cakes, but when you're talking about really how people and positions are viewed, I think that it, it says a lot right there. And that's why what worries me is that a lot of companies don't have HR.

And I'm not sure if this organization you're talking about did, but a lot of organizations don't. They did not. Yeah. Because it's HR's role if a good HR, now I've been an organization, so I do feel for your listeners out there that are like HR grumble, don't love it. I've been in those roles too, where my roadblock is HR and I've left for that reason.

But a good HR department or individual is [00:35:00] really supposed to keep an eye out for that stuff and make sure that there's fairness and making sure that there is belonging and that people's needs are being met. And that's also what helps with the retention. And so part of, I think the retention problem is we have a deficit in HR leaders in this industry too.

And I think that's, yeah, that's part of it.

Allyson Wharam: Yeah, absolutely. I wanted to revisit that example of your BCBA not necessarily coming for the first few weeks. We don't have to unpack that example exactly, but what you brought that up as was being truthful in the hiring process, but also if that, if you notice as a recruiter, patterns within the system that might be impacting someone's success during onboarding.

I guess what can the recruiter do or how could, if you're zooming out the organization, begin to think about all of this as a system? As we think about operations, clinical, HR teams, recruiting, all of these things work together. [00:36:00] And so when we're thinking about the disconnect how can we start to resolve that and make it less of a disconnect and more of an integrated system?

Holli Clauser: Yeah, so I always think of the "male" model when you're looking at, when I'm thinking about teamwork, because when an individual has a medical problem that's very difficult to solve or that is, hard to pinpoint even the direction that you're going. When it gets to the point that they're sent to male, what happens is they're sent to male with a team of individuals and that team is working together.

And not only do I love that when I'm thinking about what treating, treating a whole child approach with many different disciplines, but I think of that the same way when I'm thinking about helping to pinpoint what's not working in an organization in terms of employees. And so the first thing that I recommend is getting everybody out of their silos.

And, potentially off of their pedestals if there's, like you [00:37:00] said, some sort of hierarchy that is giving somebody too much influence on how a treatment of a of a department or role is and having everybody get together with the same goals in mind. And so being very specific on what those goals are and defining that.

And so let's say for this example, we're focused on, retention and what that looks like. Is everybody agreeing on what does a quality hire look like? What does good retention look like? How long is somebody, staying? What does you know, letting go of the wrong person look like? Let's define what that is because not all retention or all turnover is bad, but let's talk about what good does look like so that we can also reward that.

And really coming up with what the definition of quality is. And then getting up, getting on the same page of how do we come up with a plan [00:38:00] to do that? And when can we meet again to see if that's working? And what can we, what metrics can we pull and share with each other in agreement and try to pivot forward together if we need to.

And I guess what I'm trying to say is getting everybody on the same page without their egos and defining what. What your goals are, what quality looks and then working on that together instead of having separate goals and ideas and then clashing. And then now you have people that are usually in a spot where they don't feel safe or comfortable speaking up.

And so you have the individuals that might see something but is afraid to say it because maybe the recruiter is afraid to say something to clinical because they're not ob BA or they're not, even if they are a BCBA, they're not clinical, they are not in it. And so maybe they're not listened to. But I'll give you an example.

I was able to really improve hiring [00:39:00] for this one center in Colorado because I'd started to notice that a lot of the individuals I was sending forward. Were being rejected. And I didn't really, there was a disconnected disconnect to me on why that was. And so I sought feedback and some of the feedback was, they don't know DTT. They're available only these days. Now, those days did meet the client's needs and they were able to fill them, but that meant the BCBA might have to do a shift that they didn't wanna do. And so they don't wanna fill that. And so I was able to ask the questions and say, if we're looking and we're gonna look at the ethics and making a hiring decision, are we making the hiring decision based on when you wanna work or are we making it on filling the need for the clients and being able to staff?

So let's consider that. And because I have that knowledge, I was able to have that conversation. And because I know how easy DTT is to teach and train, I was able to push back on that as well. And so the great thing though is that there was a leader. [00:40:00] That was able to say, yes, Holli's not a BCBA, however these points that she's bringing up is a concern.

And now that I'm aware of it, let's have a conversation. Let's define when you can push back as a BCBA on who we're hiring, who we're not. And ultimately we decided not to have them as part of the decision making with the bts. And we were able to staff and also point to higher retention rates over a year, two year time, and having the BT so that worked out.

And I'm not saying that BCBA's need to be removed in order to see success, but you do need to get on the same page. And if there is a barrier, you need to be able to be in a safe space to talk about them. And again, being open to the fact that there are many players at the seat all trying to get to the same goal.

But let's have a conversation of where those barriers are and not place one over the other. It very easily could have turned into, you're a recruiter, you interview, you hire who we say you hire, we hire, [00:41:00] and that's it. And we never would've saw any improvement in hiring for that center.

Allyson Wharam: Yeah, I think that's really helpful. Again, I think what we keep coming back to is the ability for collaboration across the people that are involved in the process. But again, the value of having someone who truly understands the industry enough to be able to push back in a meaningful way within that collaborative process.

And I think a piece of that is obviously being really clear on what your goals are and what you're trying to accomplish. And so you've mentioned data a couple of times and metrics and tracking. What metrics do you find really matter for that long term retention?

Holli Clauser: Yeah, so I start looking at it really in the very beginning of the hiring stage. And so I do recommend having an interview form that is weighted and scored so that one, you can make more fair [00:42:00] decisions that are not biased, but also. So that the recruiter has some sort of information to look back when potentially some of their hires are not going to work.

This is not a magic bullet, right? And it takes time. So adjusting maybe how they're evaluating, adjusting maybe the questions, the weight. So it does take time to get that interview guide right? And there might be some tweaks in terms of training your recruiters in order to use them and read them.

But having data at that point is really important. I also like to measure when I, the time that it takes from somebody to get their onboarding paper work in. So the latency of giving them some tasks to do and how long it takes to return does show historically does show whether or not somebody.

Might not show up with their, with a good work ethic. And so not always, but again, over time you can start to see some patterns based on decisions that you're making as a [00:43:00] recruiter. So that feedback is really important. So looking at that and then also looking at how long in terms of for a BT, how long does it take them to complete their training?

How long does it take them to become an RBT pass their exam? How often are they calling out? You look at that with BCBA's too, how often are they calling out? What's the feedback that you're getting anecdotally from the families from the supervisors, and then also from the person that you hire themselves.

And so asking them questions and making sure that you're looking at reliable feedback in that way too. And so it's not just one thing that you're looking at, but it's really looking at everything. I also think that including scheduling in this is really important because I do believe that, and when we're talking about BT / RBT hiring, for sure, when we're looking at scheduling and we're looking at hiring, is making sure how long did it take for me to [00:44:00] hire the individual, for them to get placed, and how long did it take for me to hire the individuals for them to get placed at their optimal amount of hours that they're seeking, right?

And so then that way when I'm having conversations with potential candidates, I can say, typically, it takes this long to get staffed at this many hours because I have data that shows that I'm not just saying, you should have a client within a couple weeks, or, whatever it is. I'm saying, typically this is our timeframe.

Does that work for you? And so that feedback is important as well because it does impact turnover, right? Many RBTs will leave because they're not getting the hours. And so being able to track everything so that. Exit interviews are helpful, but usually at that time people are not being honest and they're not giving information.

And so you might not hear, I'm leaving because I was told I was going to get this and I got this instead. And so if you can track what you're saying and what's being delivered, [00:45:00] you should be able to pinpoint a disconnect there and try to phase in impacting that and changing it and see if there's improvement.

So did that answer your question?

Allyson Wharam: Yeah, absolutely. Have you seen any success with a stay interview process or anything like that?

Holli Clauser: The interviews are great. I don't have data around this, so I only have experience in terms of seeing it but not actually taking data. So just wanna be clear on that. But I have seen it really helpful because. Because it does give you information hopefully before they leave.

But I will say it depends on the questions that you're asking. I think some of my favorite ones that I've asked is what genre would this be? Is it a drama, is it a horror film? Like things like that just, it's fun, it's cheeky, but 

Allyson Wharam: A little disarming, yeah!

Holli Clauser: A little disarming, but it also allows people to think creatively who are not, maybe don't wanna say this is awful, but yeah, I'll put it in the horror genre.

And maybe that opened the conversation. But you also asking questions like, when was the last time you thought about leaving this [00:46:00] job? What was the reason? What would it take for somebody to, offer you a position for you to leave this company? These are questions that other companies are asking your people, so you better ask these, ask before they do and hopefully, make some real changes.

But also hear what's doing, hear what's going right. And you can talk about that more. You might not realize that part of the reason that they stay is that your company has a lab and they think that's great and they're able to, engage in some research and be a part of something larger.

And that is a large draw to your company and you never realize that. That's something that you can then use for your branding and talk about. You might assume that everybody has a great mentorship program, they don't let me tell you. So if you do this day interview and they have a great mentorship program, talk about it.

Or you might do the stay interview and realize that, having Ally's help and having that be a reason that your students stay. And so maybe that's something that you've identified and you wanna talk about. [00:47:00] Really talking to the people and why they're staying helps because, so oftentimes you're in a bubble of what you think is the reason that they're staying, but it's not.

And so you can pinpoint that, and maybe even take away some things that you don't need to offer because nobody's using it. 

Allyson Wharam: Yeah, those are great examples. As we wrap up here, I wanna hear a little bit more about a couple of the other things you offer. So we haven't talked as much about the staffing summit but I would love to hear from you just what that is and maybe some themes and things that you've noticed that emerge during that time together when you've had that in the past.

Holli Clauser: Yeah, so this is my passion project, I would say. I noticed that, this is, staffing, cultures, advocacy, retention, employee relations and systems are all things that really matter when we're talking about the business of ABA, but not something that [00:48:00] is talked about and focused on at any conference.

When I had started this and still not since and so I thought what happens when we bring a room full of people? Who are interested in the same thing, who want to find solutions for the, on the same topic, what happens? And what happens is a lot of really deep, meaningful conversations. And so I just gave you what the acronym starts, stands for cares.

But really, ultimately, what it stands for and what it means is the people side of ABA. And I don't mean the commodity of it, but how do we help the workforce? How do we treat it? And so that can be anywhere from how do we get leaders ready, how do we get BCBA's who want to grow into a leadership role?

What skills do they need? What kind of mentorship? What can we do to help? How can we talk about diversity and belonging in a meaningful way? How can we talk about diversity and belonging with [00:49:00] individuals who come from the groups that might be marginalized or might, need different accommodations?

How can we have those conversations? Let's all get in the same room. And so it really goes back to my whole thing, which is collaboration. Get in the same room, have the meaningful conversations.

Those are inspiring conversations, but I'm not really going home on Monday with anything. Or I might think I am, but I'm probably gonna get distracted by life. And so what's really holding me accountable? And so I think having the conversations that are intentional there is important. And so specifically this year, we're being more intentional on bringing workshops together on making sure that there's deliverables.

Something, when we're doing call for speakers, we're having them agree to, yes, I will have a deliverable. Yes, I will have something that somebody can take on a Monday or a checklist or something that can be used so that when I am inspiring and I'm talking about this. They can go home and implement or look back on and know exactly what we talked [00:50:00] about because they'll have, something tangible.

And so that's been another focus on this. And I think, Ally and I were talking separately. I think that, something that's different about this conference is that, I do have a love for and instructional design and training and teaching. And so this conference really brings that in where I do want this to be more of an offsite, if you will, an industry offsite of working together.

And the feedback that I've gotten, which has been the best feedback as somebody putting this together that keeps me motivated is I felt like I had a voice here. I felt like there was a conversation going on here. I felt seen. I haven't been to conferences in 14 years, whatever. I haven't been to a conference, in three years, whatever it is, because I felt like I was just going and I didn't really feel welcomed or didn't feel like I was getting much out of it. But, the feedback that I'm getting is quite different. Where people are feeling that when they leave with a [00:51:00] community and they feel like they leave with purpose. And so that's why I continue to do it.

But yeah, that's what I'm hoping to get out of the summit.

Allyson Wharam: I love that. A couple of different things. The focus on transfer of knowledge, because I think we've all sat through probably the majority of the CEUs that, that you've been through. It's interesting information, but I know that I often leave thinking, okay, but now what do I do with this?

And one thing I always try to do is, like you said, have some sort of like permanent product, something that helps to bridge the gap and some action items. Here is the next step that you can take to put some of this into practice That just brings it into reality. The other thing that I think.

As technology evolves and we have more continuing education online and things like that, what sets apart a conference from just being able to watch an on demand CEU or even a live syncHRonous CEU? And I think that's what I love about the conferences that I notice that I love and I want to go back to, it's not necessarily for the [00:52:00] continuing education, like that is a piece of it.

I do care about the quality and that is a piece that I look at. But more than anything I look at how is it creating community and collaboration and opportunities to network with people who are experiencing the same problems that I'm experiencing or that care about the same things that I care about.

And so I think yes, in this age of technology, that being an anchor for what you're doing is so valuable. And the last thing I wanna leave us with before folks talk about, before you talk about where folks can find you is just the bridge to technicians or, if you're hiring someone within as a recruiter or trying to train someone within as a recruiter, is the staffing summit something that would be valuable to them and or do you have other things that you would recommend for someone who's trying to grow a recruiter internally?

Holli Clauser: Yeah, absolutely. Before I give that last piece of tidbit, I do wanna say one more thing that I forgot to mention about The Cure Summit. So this [00:53:00] is something that's new. We're beta testing it. But doing a podcast prior to the conference for individuals going to the conference so the speakers can give some sort of homework or give information so that you can talk about it with your organization or your peers before you go so that those who can't go can still be in the room by influencing what you're hoping to get out of it or, trying some things before you go.

So I just wanted to mention that's another tech technological advancement that we're trying is to give something ahead of time too. So that's new. I'm excited.

Allyson Wharam: And you'll have offsites as well, right?

Holli Clauser: Yeah, and so we'll offer some offsites as well. Hit me up if you want that. We might not be advertising that as it's a beta, but if you are interested in an offsite, we will help plan it. We'll talk to you, help curate what you're hoping to get out of it if you're joining as a group. Oftentimes I'll go to a conference and see a group of 20 individuals from a team, maybe they're doing an offsite, maybe they're [00:54:00] not, we're gonna be in Boston.

It's a perfect place to get together and do some, workshops and really talk about what you're learning so that you can workshop it there and then take it home or again, have a curated leadership offsite for your team that's curated just for you. And so if that's something that you're interested in we're happy to talk about it.

And with that being said, maybe this is something that would be of interest if you do have RBT's, or you're starting a new department and you want somebody trained, that's something that I offer. And so we do an 11 week course, or we can do one-on-one or bootcamp, but really talk about not only the fundamentals of recruiting, you know how to source working with your hiring manager, the cadence of reaching out and doing events or going to career fairs or, time management, things like that.

We're also talking about how do you spot quality, how do you [00:55:00] evaluate doing some role playing? Things to help improve. We can also help you with interviewing. My passion again is retention. And I know that some people might be listening to this thinking you're gonna put more recruiters out into the space that are going to dwindle your third party recruitment that you offer.

And cool, I'm okay with that. My goal is not to see how many BCBAs I can hire or how many companies I can hire. And many of you listening, I say no to a lot of companies. And they're always surprised when when I do because they're not told no often. But if it doesn't align with my values, I'm okay saying no, I'm okay.

Also firing clients and saying no to that too. But my favorite thing is to empower them to improve. And so if there is somebody on your team that's struggling with recruiting, or again, if you're looking to hire and train somebody into the role, I am happy to help them and help your team out. You can find me on LinkedIn.

That's where I hang out the most. And so [00:56:00] that's the easiest way to get ahold of me. Or you can email me at info@abacaresstaffing.com. There's two S's in there. So it's cares staffing.com. So info@abacaresstaffing.com. Or you can look at Holli Beth Clauser, C-L-A-U-S-E-R on LinkedIn, and you message me.

I will definitely respond. If you look at my profile, I will send you a request. I'm assuming you wanna talk, so just so you know.

Allyson Wharam: I love that. Thank you for sharing that and where folks can find you and connect and you share lots of interesting tidbits. So if any of this resonated I know hiring and staffing is one of the problems that our field faces just because we're in such high demand. And so you share a ton of information on LinkedIn that I think folks would be interested in.

But thank you so much for being here, Holli. This was really interesting. I think we probably could have kept going. I think we hit some good points, but as we talked about, this is such a huge systems problem. We probably could have [00:57:00] taken so many different angles in terms of what we talked about.

Thank you so much for being here and sharing your knowledge with all of us.

Holli Clauser: Thanks for having me on. It was truly a joy.

Allyson Wharam: Thanks.

Allyson Wharam: Thank you so much for listening to In the Field, the ABA Podcast. Don't forget to visit our website at www.sidekicklearning.net for more resources, our comprehensive fieldwork supervision curriculum, and continuing education opportunities. If you enjoyed today's episode, please consider subscribing to our podcast.

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